Discussion:
GT E34L & JTM60 Bias
(too old to reply)
Evelin Gutmann
2004-02-14 00:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi!

Any experience with Groove tubes E34L (must be JJ/Tesla then) and the
Marshall JTM60 ?

What is the max. Wattage of the E34L ?
(EL34s have 25W, but this one is supposed to be more powerful)

What bias current setting or "target wattage" did you go for?

Thank you
Peter
PMG
2004-02-14 01:17:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 01:44:32 +0100, "Evelin Gutmann"
Post by Evelin Gutmann
Hi!
Any experience with Groove tubes E34L (must be JJ/Tesla then) and the
Marshall JTM60 ?
What is the max. Wattage of the E34L ?
(EL34s have 25W, but this one is supposed to be more powerful)
What bias current setting or "target wattage" did you go for?
Thank you
Peter
I don't have that amp. I'd get readings of the plate voltage, and
adjust it by the probe or cathode resistor to around 17watts with an
EL34, then adjust it until I liked the sound. Whatever anyone says
about it being able to handle more wouldn't be all that important to
me, because I wouldn't be anywhere near it's maximum. The sound'll be
muddy when you run them hot. Clean sound doesn't interest me, but I
do need clarity.

Pete

--
Now you know why I used the qualifier "practically" --Bender
WakyAmps
2004-02-14 03:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by PMG
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 01:44:32 +0100, "Evelin Gutmann"
Post by Evelin Gutmann
Hi!
Any experience with Groove tubes E34L (must be JJ/Tesla
then) and the Marshall JTM60 ?
What is the max. Wattage of the E34L ?
(EL34s have 25W, but this one is supposed to be more
powerful)
What bias current setting or "target wattage" did you go
for?
Thank you
Peter
I don't have that amp. I'd get readings of the plate
voltage, and adjust it by the probe or cathode resistor to
around 17watts with an EL34, then adjust it until I liked
the sound. Whatever anyone says about it being able to
handle more wouldn't be all that important to me, because I
wouldn't be anywhere near it's maximum. The sound'll be
muddy when you run them hot. Clean sound doesn't interest
me, but I do need clarity.
Pete
--
Now you know why I used the qualifier "practically" --Bender
LV has a particularly good diatribe on how to bias your amp
along with some suggested ranges for various tubes
http://aga.rru.com go to the technical FAQ section.

Big thing to remember is that you are biasing for static
dissipation in a class AB1 amp. I.e. the wattage you calculate
will be for zero input signal, so full power dissipation will
be higher. That's why you bias EL34s at 15-17w static maximum
-- cuz that's about 70% of rated maximum for the tube so when
you turn it up you'll fall out around 25w max dissipation.
PMG
2004-02-14 03:49:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 03:22:01 -0000, WakyAmps
Post by WakyAmps
Post by PMG
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 01:44:32 +0100, "Evelin Gutmann"
Post by Evelin Gutmann
Hi!
Any experience with Groove tubes E34L (must be JJ/Tesla
then) and the Marshall JTM60 ?
What is the max. Wattage of the E34L ?
(EL34s have 25W, but this one is supposed to be more
powerful)
What bias current setting or "target wattage" did you go
for?
Thank you
Peter
I don't have that amp. I'd get readings of the plate
voltage, and adjust it by the probe or cathode resistor to
around 17watts with an EL34, then adjust it until I liked
the sound. Whatever anyone says about it being able to
handle more wouldn't be all that important to me, because I
wouldn't be anywhere near it's maximum. The sound'll be
muddy when you run them hot. Clean sound doesn't interest
me, but I do need clarity.
Pete
--
Now you know why I used the qualifier "practically" --Bender
LV has a particularly good diatribe on how to bias your amp
along with some suggested ranges for various tubes
http://aga.rru.com go to the technical FAQ section.
Big thing to remember is that you are biasing for static
dissipation in a class AB1 amp. I.e. the wattage you calculate
will be for zero input signal, so full power dissipation will
be higher. That's why you bias EL34s at 15-17w static maximum
-- cuz that's about 70% of rated maximum for the tube so when
you turn it up you'll fall out around 25w max dissipation.
I guess 15watts would be a better starting point.

Any fine tuning that you do of the bias, put your guitar down before
reaching into the amp for any reason. Seriously.

Pete

--
Now you know why I used the qualifier "practically" --Bender
Dave Moore
2004-02-14 06:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Just go for the max,,, crank the bias as hot as you can
before the plates start to glow red in a dark room.

Simple as that.
Post by Evelin Gutmann
Hi!
Any experience with Groove tubes E34L (must be JJ/Tesla then) and the
Marshall JTM60 ?
What is the max. Wattage of the E34L ?
(EL34s have 25W, but this one is supposed to be more powerful)
What bias current setting or "target wattage" did you go for?
Thank you
Peter
Dave Moore
2004-02-14 07:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Moore
Just go for the max,,, crank the bias as hot as you can
before the plates start to glow red in a dark room.
Simple as that.
well,, let me extrapolate a bit.
The point where the plates start to glow in
a dark room is the upper limit. There certainly is no
reason that you can't bias colder than that if you
think it sounds any better that way.

I know several musicians that insist I bias to the point where
the plates are quite noticeably glowing red. I bit further than
I would go with them,, but it's their amp and if they're willing
to sacrifice a bit of tube life for the sound they want,,, that's
their business. FWIW one guy has been gigging at least 3 nights
a week for over three years now this way and still going
strong with the same tubes.
Post by Dave Moore
Post by Evelin Gutmann
Hi!
Any experience with Groove tubes E34L (must be JJ/Tesla then) and the
Marshall JTM60 ?
What is the max. Wattage of the E34L ?
(EL34s have 25W, but this one is supposed to be more powerful)
What bias current setting or "target wattage" did you go for?
Thank you
Peter
Evelin Gutmann
2004-02-14 13:04:25 UTC
Permalink
I found a data sheet saying E34L is rated at 30W max. while standard EL34 is
25W.

So does it make a difference for the desired static dissipation wattage
having E34L instead of EL34?

Thank you
WakyAmps
2004-02-14 14:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evelin Gutmann
I found a data sheet saying E34L is rated at 30W max. while
standard EL34 is 25W.
So does it make a difference for the desired static
dissipation wattage having E34L instead of EL34?
Thank you
A bit of clarification might be in order. Mostly we've been
talking about the maximum dissipation. Exceeding this can have
a significant effect on tube life.. in extreme cases life is
reduced to seconds.

The DESIRED static dissipation for any tube can be defined as
"anywhere at or below maximum values where it sounds best".

What that means is that some folks will pick an operating point
somewhere below maximum and do a listen test. Adjust, repeat.

As for E34L vs. EL34/6CA7 specs... if JJ sez it'll go to 30W
and the extra draw is within the abilities of the rest of the
circuit (which it probably is) then feel free to run 'em up to
that value. For max dissipation of 30W I'd recommend a max idle
dissipation of 30W * 0.7 = 21W. Again, we're talking maximum
values here. After biasing you should visually inspect the
power tubes after the amp has fully warmed and been played for
a bit.

I disagree with Dave Moore's advice. For my customers/builds
red glow in the plates usually[1] means too much dissipation
and time to back down. I would further suggest that visual
inspection is a confirmation/rejection of a particular bias
setting and not a measurable value for setting tube bias. By
directly measuring plate voltage and current you can derive
watts. After a careful search of various data sheets and design
/theory books I can find no listing of a maximum or recommended
operating value for any vacuum tube that is given in units of
"color" or "glow".



[1] Except in specific well-known situations - like some NOS
6V6 tubes that can have a bit of red glow on certain portions
of the plates and operate just fine. Note that this is from
empirical evidence for specific tubes/types and not a general
rule.
JTM50
2004-02-14 21:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by WakyAmps
Post by Evelin Gutmann
I found a data sheet saying E34L is rated at 30W max. while
standard EL34 is 25W.
So does it make a difference for the desired static
dissipation wattage having E34L instead of EL34?
Thank you
Yeah, well, the TUBE may be able to handle a higher dissipation rating (at
least according to GT) but can the POWER SUPPLY handle producing it is
another concern! At 21 watts that means the power supply is constantly
producing 42 watts before the signal is applied! Once you supply a signal
the amount of power the power supply has to deliver goes up from there...

Lloyd
Post by WakyAmps
A bit of clarification might be in order. Mostly we've been
talking about the maximum dissipation. Exceeding this can have
a significant effect on tube life.. in extreme cases life is
reduced to seconds.
The DESIRED static dissipation for any tube can be defined as
"anywhere at or below maximum values where it sounds best".
What that means is that some folks will pick an operating point
somewhere below maximum and do a listen test. Adjust, repeat.
As for E34L vs. EL34/6CA7 specs... if JJ sez it'll go to 30W
and the extra draw is within the abilities of the rest of the
circuit (which it probably is) then feel free to run 'em up to
that value. For max dissipation of 30W I'd recommend a max idle
dissipation of 30W * 0.7 = 21W. Again, we're talking maximum
values here. After biasing you should visually inspect the
power tubes after the amp has fully warmed and been played for
a bit.
I disagree with Dave Moore's advice. For my customers/builds
red glow in the plates usually[1] means too much dissipation
and time to back down. I would further suggest that visual
inspection is a confirmation/rejection of a particular bias
setting and not a measurable value for setting tube bias. By
directly measuring plate voltage and current you can derive
watts. After a careful search of various data sheets and design
/theory books I can find no listing of a maximum or recommended
operating value for any vacuum tube that is given in units of
"color" or "glow".
[1] Except in specific well-known situations - like some NOS
6V6 tubes that can have a bit of red glow on certain portions
of the plates and operate just fine. Note that this is from
empirical evidence for specific tubes/types and not a general
rule.
Dave Moore
2004-02-19 02:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTM50
Post by Evelin Gutmann
I found a data sheet saying E34L is rated at 30W max. while
standard EL34 is 25W.
So does it make a difference for the desired static
dissipation wattage having E34L instead of EL34?
Thank you
Yeah, well, the TUBE may be able to handle a higher dissipation rating (at
least according to GT) but can the POWER SUPPLY handle producing it is
another concern! At 21 watts that means the power supply is constantly
producing 42 watts before the signal is applied! Once you supply a signal
the amount of power the power supply has to deliver goes up from there...
Lloyd
Yeah it goes up from there,, but where does it go up
to,, not any or only slightly higher than it would otherwise as
the main limit on power put out by the amp is set pretty much
by B+ value and the impedance match of the load anyway.


Unless of course you decide to lower the impedance of the load,
the overall power that the power supply needs to source will remain
pretty much the same.

Bear in mind that when a signal is present, one tube will
always be *off* and not conducting or dissipating power
for the most part of half a cycle anyway.
JTM50
2004-02-19 04:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Moore
Post by JTM50
Post by Evelin Gutmann
I found a data sheet saying E34L is rated at 30W max. while
standard EL34 is 25W.
So does it make a difference for the desired static
dissipation wattage having E34L instead of EL34?
Thank you
Yeah, well, the TUBE may be able to handle a higher dissipation rating (at
least according to GT) but can the POWER SUPPLY handle producing it is
another concern! At 21 watts that means the power supply is constantly
producing 42 watts before the signal is applied! Once you supply a signal
the amount of power the power supply has to deliver goes up from there...
Lloyd
Yeah it goes up from there,, but where does it go up
to,, not any or only slightly higher than it would otherwise as
the main limit on power put out by the amp is set pretty much
by B+ value and the impedance match of the load anyway.
Unless of course you decide to lower the impedance of the load,
the overall power that the power supply needs to source will remain
pretty much the same.
Bear in mind that when a signal is present, one tube will
always be *off* and not conducting or dissipating power
for the most part of half a cycle anyway.
Yeah, but as you add more current (less neg bias voltage) the amp is slowing
heading towards working in Class A. This means that both tubes are now "on"
much more often (much more than %50 of the cycle) which is an increased
demand on the power supply. Yet you don't see anymore power delivered to the
load.

But my main point was that the GT E34L has an increased plate dissipation
and therefore can be biased "hotter". In this case it's not much of a
concern. But if you suffed in some KT88s and biased them up to say 30 watts
you would have some concern. Yes the 30 watts is a safe and reasonable
dissipation for that tube but for the power supply you are running it at or
near it's limit just idling (60watts)...

Lloyd
Dave Moore
2004-02-15 15:56:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by WakyAmps
I disagree with Dave Moore's advice. For my customers/builds
red glow in the plates usually[1] means too much dissipation
and time to back down.
Apparently you didn't read what I said very thoroughly.

I said adjust to the point *before* where they start to glow
red.

This means crank it up to the point where you can
notice some red,, then back it down to the point where
you don't see any red.


Please don't misquote people on technical or
on topic issues. It truly is bad form.

If you want to give me shit on political or OT issues fine,
but I take exception to misquotes on technical matters.
l***@aol.com
2004-02-16 18:30:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Moore
If you want to give me shit on political or OT issues fine,
but I take exception to misquotes on technical matters.
Dave, you probably know a lot more about these issues than anything
related to tube amplifiers, by any technical yardstick, if your posts
are the evidence. As I have mentioned before, you are usually as full
of it as a Christmas goose. :-)

Consider learning something about AB1 dissipation. The fact that you
may get away with believing & doing things wrong, even if it works for
you all your life, doesn't make you right about anything.
Dave Moore
2004-02-19 09:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@aol.com
Post by Dave Moore
If you want to give me shit on political or OT issues fine,
but I take exception to misquotes on technical matters.
Dave, you probably know a lot more about these issues than anything
related to tube amplifiers, by any technical yardstick, if your posts
are the evidence. As I have mentioned before, you are usually as full
of it as a Christmas goose. :-)
DM
yes you have, and you were full of it then also.

Funny,, I don't see anyone else that's *actually*
knowledgeable about amps backing you up with your
assertions. Doesn't that strike you as a bit peculiar?

What are you anyway,, another AOL troll or something?
care to cite your credentials?
Post by l***@aol.com
Consider learning something about AB1 dissipation.
Well, isn't that cute,, a nice snitty little remark
with no information offered.
Not so surprising however as
I went through the AGA archives looking for anything
technical you've ever posted and simply got tired of
looking for anything significant that you've ever posted
that might indicate that you know your ass from up.

All I found was a bunch of little snit assed remarks
to people and a few mentions of different bias classes
with no explanations of the bias classes beyond the
name dropping of them.

Now if you think otherwise,, perhaps you can
post a link to anything technical you've ever posted
that has nay meat in it and save me the trouble
of wading through a mountain of ankle biting
and operating class name dropping.




Concerning the power dissipation of tubes in an
AB1 output section biased slightly on the hot side
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure, they'll dissipate slightly more power
if the amp is biased hotter. Not enough more to be
of any significant consequence or problem however.

Why, because the dynamic dissipation of the
output tubes is defined by the B+ value used
and the value of load impedance used, not the
bias point. ( within limits of course)

The bias point ( within practical values) has little
effect on the *dynamic* dissipation of the output
tubes. It affects mainly the *static* dissipation.

There will however be a small amount of
power unattainable as the *active* input voltage
swing will be reduced by the amount of underbias.

Lets say (using arbitrary values) that you were to
bias the grids at -45 volts instead of -55 volts.

At -55V, the output tubes will
respond to a peak to peak input signal of 110 volts
before saturation occurs.
Whereas if the bias was -45 volts, the output tubes
will only respond to a 90VPP signal before saturation
occurs. This translates into a slightly reduced voltage
swing at the output.

However in terms of output power, this small
loss isn't that significant audibly.

A small price to pay for the reduction
of third harmonic distortion ( if that's what one likes)

You have to remember that in dynamic operation,
only one tube is on at a time anyway, so the only
increase in tube dissipation for dynamic operation
will be for a *very brief* period of time when both
halves are conducting.

yeah,, that's right,, if you bias a bit on the hot side,
the operation for very small signals will be AB2.

Then as the signal level increases,
due to some (very slight) grid leakage and also the fact
that the drive signal from the phase splitter isn't perfectly
symetrical, (DC component), an added negative bias
accumulates on the grid coupling caps which pushes
the class back to AB1.

Then if you hard clip the amp to where the drive signal
exceeds 0 volts,, the grids on the output tubes
will be forward biased and forward conduction of the
grids will occur.
When this happens, the grid coupling caps *really*
take on an additive negative charge *big time*
and the resulting debiasing effect can push the
output section all the way into Class C
(as long as the amp is being hard clipped that is)

That's right Virginia,, the class of operation gets
jacked around depending on signal size.
Post by l***@aol.com
The fact that you
may get away with believing & doing things wrong, even if it works for
you all your life, doesn't make you right about anything.
DM
Oh, I see,, the fact that it works, doesn't mean it works.
That's really rich.

No Motherboard or Microprocessor manufacturer
ever recommends to overclock,,, but people do it
all the time. Fact of life. Get used to it.


When working at Memorex, we had an entire
department devoted to testing parts to see if they
were up to the standards specified by their specs.
99% of the time, parts tested
exceeded their specs by 10-20% or more.

Not too surprising when one considers how the specs
for parts a made.

First the limits are found, then the specs are usually
spec'd below their tested failure values.
Any company that doesn't
over spec it's parts would be just downright foolish.
Although likewise it would be foolish for a designer
to assume this,, so generally designers will design
a bit more tolerance into the design.
so,, the product usually ends up with a good bit of
headroom that the brave can sometimes exploit.

Do you think that a mosfet that is rated for 800 volts will
avalanche at exactly 800 volts. I have yet to find one that will.

However, this is optional for the manufacturer. They can
specify parts in anyway they choose. It's not written in
stone.

However, it should be noted that this thread was about
El34's and the plates on EL34's tend to glow rather
soon whereas I usually use more scientific methods
to bias 6L6's.



Dave Moore True expert
Zorrro_2k
2004-02-19 14:20:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Moore
Just go for the max,,, crank the bias as hot as you can
before the plates start to glow red in a dark room.
Simple as that.
A much of a crock of 'caca del toro' as this seems to be, I saw the
back of Santana's amps during a concert a few years ago and his tubes
were glowing cherry-red. He also had a huge array of small fan's
blowing on them.

Still, anyone who set's the bias of their amp so that the tubes are
right at the 'glow-point' is going to limit the clean headroom of the
amp and is asking for trouble and expense. Personally, I'd follow the
'70% rule'.

Loading...