Discussion:
Fender cyber champ
(too old to reply)
MLINYHI
2004-03-04 23:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I went to guitar center
to check it out. There happened to be a fender rep there so I asked him and he
(of course) showed me the next higher model-cyber champ deluxe. Its real nice.
All kinds of amp simulations and effects. Sounded good from what I could hear
over all the racket in the store. Goes for about $700 for the deluxe and $450
for the basic. Anyone own one or try one? Anything positive or negative to
say? Think theres something out there of equal quality/features for less money?


Thanks!!
PMG
2004-03-05 00:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by MLINYHI
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I went to guitar center
to check it out. There happened to be a fender rep there so I asked him and he
(of course) showed me the next higher model-cyber champ deluxe. Its real nice.
All kinds of amp simulations and effects. Sounded good from what I could hear
over all the racket in the store. Goes for about $700 for the deluxe and $450
for the basic. Anyone own one or try one? Anything positive or negative to
say? Think theres something out there of equal quality/features for less money?
Thanks!!
You can buy a REAL Champ for around $200. And I *am* talking about a
handwired amp, with real tubes.

You're welcome.

Pete

--
Now you know why I used the qualifier "practically" --Bender
WakyAmps
2004-03-05 00:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by PMG
Post by MLINYHI
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I
went to guitar center to check it out. There happened to be
a fender rep there so I asked him and he (of course) showed
me the next higher model-cyber champ deluxe. Its real nice.
All kinds of amp simulations and effects. Sounded good from
what I could hear over all the racket in the store. Goes for
about $700 for the deluxe and $450 for the basic. Anyone
own one or try one? Anything positive or negative to say?
Think theres something out there of equal quality/features
for less money?
Thanks!!
You can buy a REAL Champ for around $200. And I *am*
talking about a handwired amp, with real tubes.
You're welcome.
Pete
--
Now you know why I used the qualifier "practically" --Bender
I had to read twice when I saw both "Champ" and "65 watt" in the
same sentence.
PMG
2004-03-05 01:20:16 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:50:15 -0000, WakyAmps
Post by WakyAmps
Post by PMG
Post by MLINYHI
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I
went to guitar center to check it out. There happened to be
a fender rep there so I asked him and he (of course) showed
me the next higher model-cyber champ deluxe. Its real nice.
All kinds of amp simulations and effects. Sounded good from
what I could hear over all the racket in the store. Goes for
about $700 for the deluxe and $450 for the basic. Anyone
own one or try one? Anything positive or negative to say?
Think theres something out there of equal quality/features
for less money?
Thanks!!
You can buy a REAL Champ for around $200. And I *am*
talking about a handwired amp, with real tubes.
You're welcome.
Pete
--
Now you know why I used the qualifier "practically" --Bender
I had to read twice when I saw both "Champ" and "65 watt" in the
same sentence.
They've come a long way. (they've got their own cigarette now)

Pete

--
Now you know why I used the qualifier "practically" --Bender
Keith Adams
2004-03-05 00:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but.
Personally I dont care for any amp built on a circuit board.Its like wanting
ice cream and getting imitation ice milk.Why dont you take the same amount
of money and buy a real Champ and a decent guitar to go with it.I doubt if
the one you mention will have any resale value at all in ten years.Just a
failed gimmick
Ed Cregger
2004-03-05 02:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but.
Personally I dont care for any amp built on a circuit board.Its like wanting
ice cream and getting imitation ice milk.Why dont you take the same amount
of money and buy a real Champ and a decent guitar to go with it.I doubt if
the one you mention will have any resale value at all in ten years.Just a
failed gimmick
Like the computers we are all using to access this newsgroup?

Ed Cregger
Keith Adams
2004-03-05 02:50:23 UTC
Permalink
If the original home computer would have been tube driven and wasnt as big
as the house I'd say hell yeah give me the tubes.What the hells that got to
do with a guitar amp?
RonSonic
2004-03-06 06:57:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
Post by Keith Adams
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but.
Personally I dont care for any amp built on a circuit board.Its like
wanting
Post by Keith Adams
ice cream and getting imitation ice milk.Why dont you take the same amount
of money and buy a real Champ and a decent guitar to go with it.I doubt if
the one you mention will have any resale value at all in ten years.Just a
failed gimmick
Like the computers we are all using to access this newsgroup?
Just like them. In 5-6 years it'll be worth a small fraction of what you paid.

The real amps have a sound that you know from decades of experience will be
valid years from now. You don't know that about any of the modelers.

Ron
Ed Cregger
2004-03-06 07:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by RonSonic
Post by Keith Adams
Post by Keith Adams
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but.
Personally I dont care for any amp built on a circuit board.Its like
wanting
Post by Keith Adams
ice cream and getting imitation ice milk.Why dont you take the same amount
of money and buy a real Champ and a decent guitar to go with it.I doubt if
the one you mention will have any resale value at all in ten years.Just a
failed gimmick
Like the computers we are all using to access this newsgroup?
Just like them. In 5-6 years it'll be worth a small fraction of what you paid.
The real amps have a sound that you know from decades of experience will be
valid years from now. You don't know that about any of the modelers.
Ron
I like real amps too, Ron. I just bought an Ampeg Super Reverb Rocket, or
something similar to that.

Most of the cyber amps are so cheap that I wouldn't really have an
expectation of them being loved in ten or twenty years. Kind of like the
computer I'm typing on. Yet the computer I'm typing on does permit me to do
things that my old typewriter would not. Agreed?

I'm not arguing either/or. I own both old/new tube and digital solid-state
amps. I would not want to have to give either of them up.

Some folks are adverse to new technology and nothing you or I can do will
change their ways. That's fine. Whatever works for them. But it doesn't make
people that embrace new technology idiots or inferior musicians.

Ed Cregger
MLINYHI
2004-03-06 14:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Ok, I get it. The newfangled high tech stuff cant compare to the sound produced
by the old style amps and the argument of resale value makes sense. I guess I
shoulda explained what I use it for though because that seems to have some
bearing on the type of amp to purchase. I do mostly computer based recording at
home and come straight out of the amp to the sound card.The more sounds I can
get out of the amp the better for recording purposes. I use the amp I have now
for keyboards and vocals also. Im aware this is far from the best way to go
about this but budget restraints make it appealing. I use both an accoustic and
electric guitar.

I have not played live recently but would like to have that flexibilty if I
want to.

What amp if any will cover all these bases? Im not looking for perfection but I
also dont want anyone who listens (like one previous post) To think the amp
sounds like shit if I play out with a band.

Thanks again
Ed Cregger
2004-03-06 15:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by MLINYHI
Ok, I get it. The newfangled high tech stuff cant compare to the sound produced
by the old style amps and the argument of resale value makes sense. I guess I
shoulda explained what I use it for though because that seems to have some
bearing on the type of amp to purchase. I do mostly computer based recording at
home and come straight out of the amp to the sound card.The more sounds I can
get out of the amp the better for recording purposes. I use the amp I have now
for keyboards and vocals also. Im aware this is far from the best way to go
about this but budget restraints make it appealing. I use both an accoustic and
electric guitar.
I have not played live recently but would like to have that flexibilty if I
want to.
What amp if any will cover all these bases? Im not looking for perfection but I
also dont want anyone who listens (like one previous post) To think the amp
sounds like shit if I play out with a band.
Thanks again
I use a Behringer GX212 for exactly the same purposes as you stated. It
works extremely well and sounds great. The GX212 has been replaced with the
GMX212. I haven't heard the latest version yet.

As you probably know, music and the attendant hardware is completely
subjective in what is good versus what is bad. Buy to please you and forget
what others think. Including me.

Ed Cregger
Wämp
2004-03-05 01:18:08 UTC
Permalink
You will find in two weeks half your money is gone and you still don't have a real
amp. If you have unlimited funds and you want a toy, go a head practice trickle
down.. were is it made?
Go for the real deal. Try a P R or a Deluxe Reverb. Everyone hould have a Champ
Chris
Post by MLINYHI
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I went to guitar center
to check it out. There happened to be a fender rep there so I asked him and he
(of course) showed me the next higher model-cyber champ deluxe. Its real nice.
All kinds of amp simulations and effects. Sounded good from what I could hear
over all the racket in the store. Goes for about $700 for the deluxe and $450
for the basic. Anyone own one or try one? Anything positive or negative to
say? Think theres something out there of equal quality/features for less money?
Thanks!!
DGDevin
2004-03-05 01:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by MLINYHI
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I went to guitar center
to check it out. There happened to be a fender rep there so I asked him and he
(of course) showed me the next higher model-cyber champ deluxe. Its real nice.
All kinds of amp simulations and effects. Sounded good from what I could hear
over all the racket in the store. Goes for about $700 for the deluxe and
$450
Post by MLINYHI
for the basic. Anyone own one or try one? Anything positive or negative to
say? Think theres something out there of equal quality/features for less money?
Thanks!!
Earlier today I picked up a '71 Champ, freshly refurbed by the local amp
doctor, new caps and tubes and a shiny Jensen, got it for a small fraction
of what they want for this cyber thing. If you want all those effects etc.,
get a nice used tube Champ *and* a stompbox with all the flange and reverb
and whatever, that way when you get tired of the digital effects, you'll
still have a tasty little tube amp, hand-wired, solid-wood cabinet, and it
will sound better than the cyber Champ could ever dream of.

Why digital simulate when you can tube stimulate? ;-)
Ed Cregger
2004-03-05 02:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by MLINYHI
Post by MLINYHI
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I went to guitar
center
Post by MLINYHI
to check it out. There happened to be a fender rep there so I asked him
and he
Post by MLINYHI
(of course) showed me the next higher model-cyber champ deluxe. Its real
nice.
Post by MLINYHI
All kinds of amp simulations and effects. Sounded good from what I could
hear
Post by MLINYHI
over all the racket in the store. Goes for about $700 for the deluxe and
$450
Post by MLINYHI
for the basic. Anyone own one or try one? Anything positive or negative
to
Post by MLINYHI
say? Think theres something out there of equal quality/features for less
money?
Post by MLINYHI
Thanks!!
Earlier today I picked up a '71 Champ, freshly refurbed by the local amp
doctor, new caps and tubes and a shiny Jensen, got it for a small fraction
of what they want for this cyber thing. If you want all those effects etc.,
get a nice used tube Champ *and* a stompbox with all the flange and reverb
and whatever, that way when you get tired of the digital effects, you'll
still have a tasty little tube amp, hand-wired, solid-wood cabinet, and it
will sound better than the cyber Champ could ever dream of.
Why digital simulate when you can tube stimulate? ;-)
I own both kinds of amps. Old/new tubers and modern digitals. I like both.

Guess which ones I use the most? The digitals. Why? Because I can't stand to
open up the tube amps, even the little ones, in order to get them into their
sweet spot. My hearing is nearly gone as it is. I don't need to further
accelerate its loss.

On the other hand, my digital amps entertain me just fine and at a volume
that my family and neighbors do not complain about. See why the digitals are
better for me?

I'll bet that the majority of folks reading this newsgroup are just like
me - poor bastards. 8>)

Ed Cregger
DGDevin
2004-03-05 03:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cregger
On the other hand, my digital amps entertain me just fine and at a volume
that my family and neighbors do not complain about. See why the digitals are
better for me?
Gilmore Jr., half a watt means never having to say your'e sorry.

http://www.gerhartamps.com/

I know what you mean re. the usefulness of digital guitar amps and pedals in
situations where you can't let a tube amp really unwind, but I don't think
it's a either-or situation.
Graeme Roy
2004-03-05 04:50:02 UTC
Permalink
. . .although $1000US for a 1/2 watt amp is pretty hefty. Great if you can
swing that type of coin for a home studio I guess. Me, I need a little more
bang for the buck!

Graeme
Post by DGDevin
Post by Ed Cregger
On the other hand, my digital amps entertain me just fine and at a volume
that my family and neighbors do not complain about. See why the digitals
are
Post by Ed Cregger
better for me?
Gilmore Jr., half a watt means never having to say your'e sorry.
http://www.gerhartamps.com/
I know what you mean re. the usefulness of digital guitar amps and pedals in
situations where you can't let a tube amp really unwind, but I don't think
it's a either-or situation.
DGDevin
2004-03-05 07:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Roy
. . .although $1000US for a 1/2 watt amp is pretty hefty. Great if you can
swing that type of coin for a home studio I guess. Me, I need a little more
bang for the buck!
Graeme
I meant the Gilmore Jr. *kit* -- about two fifty complete, I should have
made that clear, sorry.
Nels
2004-03-05 06:15:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
Post by MLINYHI
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I went to guitar
center
Post by MLINYHI
to check it out. There happened to be a fender rep there so I asked him
and he
Post by MLINYHI
(of course) showed me the next higher model-cyber champ deluxe. Its real
nice.
Post by MLINYHI
All kinds of amp simulations and effects. Sounded good from what I could
hear
Post by MLINYHI
over all the racket in the store. Goes for about $700 for the deluxe and
$450
Post by MLINYHI
for the basic. Anyone own one or try one? Anything positive or negative
to
Post by MLINYHI
say? Think theres something out there of equal quality/features for less
money?
Post by MLINYHI
Thanks!!
Earlier today I picked up a '71 Champ, freshly refurbed by the local amp
doctor, new caps and tubes and a shiny Jensen, got it for a small fraction
of what they want for this cyber thing. If you want all those effects
etc.,
Post by MLINYHI
get a nice used tube Champ *and* a stompbox with all the flange and reverb
and whatever, that way when you get tired of the digital effects, you'll
still have a tasty little tube amp, hand-wired, solid-wood cabinet, and it
will sound better than the cyber Champ could ever dream of.
Why digital simulate when you can tube stimulate? ;-)
I own both kinds of amps. Old/new tubers and modern digitals. I like both.
Guess which ones I use the most? The digitals. Why? Because I can't stand to
open up the tube amps, even the little ones, in order to get them into their
sweet spot. My hearing is nearly gone as it is. I don't need to further
accelerate its loss.
On the other hand, my digital amps entertain me just fine and at a volume
that my family and neighbors do not complain about. See why the digitals are
better for me?
I'll bet that the majority of folks reading this newsgroup are just like
me - poor bastards. 8>)
Ed Cregger
Don't bet too much.

ERic
Ed Cregger
2004-03-05 07:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by MLINYHI
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
Post by MLINYHI
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I went to
guitar
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
center
Post by MLINYHI
to check it out. There happened to be a fender rep there so I asked
him
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
and he
Post by MLINYHI
(of course) showed me the next higher model-cyber champ deluxe. Its
real
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
nice.
Post by MLINYHI
All kinds of amp simulations and effects. Sounded good from what I
could
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
hear
Post by MLINYHI
over all the racket in the store. Goes for about $700 for the deluxe
and
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
$450
Post by MLINYHI
for the basic. Anyone own one or try one? Anything positive or
negative
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
to
Post by MLINYHI
say? Think theres something out there of equal quality/features for
less
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
money?
Post by MLINYHI
Thanks!!
Earlier today I picked up a '71 Champ, freshly refurbed by the local amp
doctor, new caps and tubes and a shiny Jensen, got it for a small
fraction
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
of what they want for this cyber thing. If you want all those effects
etc.,
Post by MLINYHI
get a nice used tube Champ *and* a stompbox with all the flange and
reverb
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
and whatever, that way when you get tired of the digital effects, you'll
still have a tasty little tube amp, hand-wired, solid-wood cabinet,
and
Post by MLINYHI
it
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
will sound better than the cyber Champ could ever dream of.
Why digital simulate when you can tube stimulate? ;-)
I own both kinds of amps. Old/new tubers and modern digitals. I like both.
Guess which ones I use the most? The digitals. Why? Because I can't
stand
Post by MLINYHI
to
Post by Ed Cregger
open up the tube amps, even the little ones, in order to get them into
their
Post by Ed Cregger
sweet spot. My hearing is nearly gone as it is. I don't need to further
accelerate its loss.
On the other hand, my digital amps entertain me just fine and at a volume
that my family and neighbors do not complain about. See why the digitals
are
Post by Ed Cregger
better for me?
I'll bet that the majority of folks reading this newsgroup are just like
me - poor bastards. 8>)
Ed Cregger
Don't bet too much.
ERic
So, are you an elitist that in his heart-of-hearts actually hopes that this
newsgroup is read by fellow elitist guitarists that perform live with amps
cranked wide open? Maybe not you, personally, but some I have read here seem
to think so.

In reality, I would say that the majority of readers are people with an
interest in guitars and amps that work straight jobs, live in close quarters
with others and dare not make much of a ruckus with their instruments. Such
people are perfect candidates for solid-state, low cost, digital amplifiers.
Sure, most dream about opening up a tube amp and letting it wail, but in
reality, it never comes to that. One of these folks buying a tube amp is
really a bad investment. They would be infinitely better off buying
something that would entertain them. Digital effects amps offer tons more
entertainment in confined quarters than any tube amp can offer.

Maybe some day, someone will come out with a quarter watt tube amp that
could be screamed at full volume, but it hasn't happened yet.

Ed Cregger
DGDevin
2004-03-05 07:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cregger
Digital effects amps offer tons more
entertainment in confined quarters than any tube amp can offer.
Maybe some day, someone will come out with a quarter watt tube amp that
could be screamed at full volume, but it hasn't happened yet.
Ed Cregger
While I understand your argument, I have to say there are low-power tube
amps out there that not only sound better than digital amps but which can be
played in close quarters, I played through my new (32-year-old) Champ most
of the day, no complaints from the neighbors. I wouldn't do so at one in
the morning, but then I wouldn't do so with any amp at that time, that's
what headphone amps are for. And actually there are tube amps on the market
that go down to a tenth of a watt, and the way I play that's probably a
mercy for those close enough to hear. ;-)
Ed Cregger
2004-03-05 08:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by DGDevin
Post by Ed Cregger
Digital effects amps offer tons more
entertainment in confined quarters than any tube amp can offer.
Maybe some day, someone will come out with a quarter watt tube amp that
could be screamed at full volume, but it hasn't happened yet.
Ed Cregger
While I understand your argument, I have to say there are low-power tube
amps out there that not only sound better than digital amps but which can be
played in close quarters, I played through my new (32-year-old) Champ most
of the day, no complaints from the neighbors. I wouldn't do so at one in
the morning, but then I wouldn't do so with any amp at that time, that's
what headphone amps are for. And actually there are tube amps on the market
that go down to a tenth of a watt, and the way I play that's probably a
mercy for those close enough to hear. ;-)
I own tube amps too. Let me make that clear. I am not a tube hater at all.

Some of the folks that bad mouth solid-state amps with digital effects give
the argument that nothing sounds as good as a tube amp. They do not take
into consideration that the only time that a tube amp has a clear advantage
over a solid-state amp is when both are cranked wide open in order to obtain
distortion. To these folks, if it isn't distorted and singing away like a
rabid violin, it isn't any good. There is no hope for these folks. Heck, I
even like that sound myself.

There are a few folks that are hooked on a certain vintage tube sound at
clean volume levels, but I don't think there are that many. If there were,
the Ampeg J-12T and SJ-12T would have much better resale values. I just
bought a used one by the way. I like all styles of guitar playing, so a jazz
worthy amp is nice to add to the inventory. The SJ-12T sells new for $599
these days. I just bought mine for $275 in great shape. I wouldn't call that
a good resale price for a six hundred dollar amp.

For the rest of the folks that strum electric guitar in the confines of
their homes, digital effects offer a lot of entertainment for the buck. No,
super ego-inflated lead guitar wannabies won't be that enamored with them.
But the majority of guitar owners most certainly will be. I have a great
time playing my Behringer GX212. Its effects provide me with lots of
inspiration with which to create new songs.

Yes, there probably are very low powered tube amps, but then we get back
into the issue of the lack of sufficient SPL to make the strings come alive,
as they would when standing in front of a dimed 100 watt tube Marshall with
two 4x12" speaker stacks, if you understand what I mean.

Ed Cregger
WakyAmps
2004-03-05 14:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by DGDevin
et...
Post by DGDevin
Post by Ed Cregger
Digital effects amps offer tons more
entertainment in confined quarters than any tube amp can
offer.
Maybe some day, someone will come out with a quarter watt
tube amp that could be screamed at full volume, but it
hasn't happened yet.
Ed Cregger
While I understand your argument, I have to say there are
low-power tube amps out there that not only sound better
than digital amps but which can
be
Post by DGDevin
played in close quarters, I played through my new
(32-year-old) Champ most of the day, no complaints from the
neighbors. I wouldn't do so at one in the morning, but
then I wouldn't do so with any amp at that time, that's
what headphone amps are for. And actually there are tube
amps on the
market
Post by DGDevin
that go down to a tenth of a watt, and the way I play
that's probably a mercy for those close enough to hear.
;-)
I own tube amps too. Let me make that clear. I am not a tube
hater at all.
Some of the folks that bad mouth solid-state amps with
digital effects give the argument that nothing sounds as
good as a tube amp. They do not take into consideration that
the only time that a tube amp has a clear advantage over a
solid-state amp is when both are cranked wide open in order
to obtain distortion. To these folks, if it isn't distorted
and singing away like a rabid violin, it isn't any good.
There is no hope for these folks. Heck, I even like that
sound myself.
There are a few folks that are hooked on a certain vintage
tube sound at clean volume levels, but I don't think there
are that many. If there were, the Ampeg J-12T and SJ-12T
would have much better resale values. I just bought a used
one by the way. I like all styles of guitar playing, so a
jazz worthy amp is nice to add to the inventory. The SJ-12T
sells new for $599 these days. I just bought mine for $275
in great shape. I wouldn't call that a good resale price for
a six hundred dollar amp.
For the rest of the folks that strum electric guitar in the
confines of their homes, digital effects offer a lot of
entertainment for the buck. No, super ego-inflated lead
guitar wannabies won't be that enamored with them. But the
majority of guitar owners most certainly will be. I have a
great time playing my Behringer GX212. Its effects provide
me with lots of inspiration with which to create new songs.
Yes, there probably are very low powered tube amps, but then
we get back into the issue of the lack of sufficient SPL to
make the strings come alive, as they would when standing in
front of a dimed 100 watt tube Marshall with two 4x12"
speaker stacks, if you understand what I mean.
Ed Cregger
Hey Ed,

I agree that there are a helluva lot of folks out there who do
the majority of their playing through small SS amps and what
I'll broadly classify as headphone amps -- in this latter
category I'll include gear like PODs, Korg Pandoras, etc.

The desire to not pester the neighbors is a strong one. I think
that budget has been a strong driver as well (whether real or
imagined.. more on this in a bit). I actually had a couple of
the modellers for a while, but their primary usefulness for me
was to see what different effects sound like. Friends who still
have this stuff use 'em mostly for recording into their
computer on a budget.

I am also in the camp that the SS devices listed above just
don't sound very good in comparison to the tube gear I've
played (not to mention the tube gear I've designed and built).
Ignoring the differences when dimed and SS vs toob distortion,
my experience has been that the tube designs have richer
overtones, more depth, better response to pick dynamics, etc.
In general just more responsive gear -- more a part of the
instrument than just something to make it louder.

This does not argue that SS cannot achieve these things -- only
that, in my experience, it has not.

Too, I think the market is poorly informed, and, in some cases,
misinformed. Those marketing the devices mentioned above use as
their sales points almost exactly your arguments above.
However, there are low wattage and relatively low cost tube
designs that (again IMHO) can compete directly with this stuff
on price and sound better. Now is probably a good place to
admit that there are some awful tube designs out there also --
again, informed purchases will make the difference.

So, when folks ask "what to get" in this NG, Most of us will do
our best to steer them to the well designed tube gear. Some
offer a bit more vitriole in their review of SS gear than
others, but I'd wager the basis of these reviews is usually for
the same reasons I list above. Some folks just don't articulate
their views as politely as others :)
-Todd
Squid
2004-03-05 08:26:04 UTC
Permalink
"Ed Cregger" <***@homtail.com> wrote in message news:***@enews3.newsguy.com...
One of these folks buying a tube amp is
Post by Ed Cregger
really a bad investment. They would be infinitely better off buying
something that would entertain them. Digital effects amps offer tons more
entertainment in confined quarters than any tube amp can offer.
I don't know - I live in a super small apartment and enjoy my Blues Jr (
$360 ) as much as possible - tweaking that master volume I can get some real
nice tone out of the thing - connect my Tube Screamer and I'm set at
moderate to low volumes - I even use the thing for Rehearsal - believe it or
not those 15 watts can cut right through my bass players fridge ampeg cab
and drummer's hard hitting style. I also own a Tech 21 Trademark 10 but I
rarely touch it if I've brought the BJ home with me.

Sure - model amps have all those bells and whistles but there is nothing
like plugging straight into an amp and just hearing your notes ring naked.
Especially if it's coming out of a tube amp.
RG
2004-03-05 11:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by DGDevin
Post by MLINYHI
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
Post by MLINYHI
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I went to
guitar
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
center
Post by MLINYHI
to check it out. There happened to be a fender rep there so I asked
him
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
and he
Post by MLINYHI
(of course) showed me the next higher model-cyber champ deluxe. Its
real
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
nice.
Post by MLINYHI
All kinds of amp simulations and effects. Sounded good from what I
could
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
hear
Post by MLINYHI
over all the racket in the store. Goes for about $700 for the deluxe
and
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
$450
Post by MLINYHI
for the basic. Anyone own one or try one? Anything positive or
negative
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
to
Post by MLINYHI
say? Think theres something out there of equal quality/features for
less
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
money?
Post by MLINYHI
Thanks!!
Earlier today I picked up a '71 Champ, freshly refurbed by the local
amp
Post by MLINYHI
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
doctor, new caps and tubes and a shiny Jensen, got it for a small
fraction
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
of what they want for this cyber thing. If you want all those effects
etc.,
Post by MLINYHI
get a nice used tube Champ *and* a stompbox with all the flange and
reverb
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
and whatever, that way when you get tired of the digital effects,
you'll
Post by MLINYHI
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
still have a tasty little tube amp, hand-wired, solid-wood cabinet,
and
Post by MLINYHI
it
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by MLINYHI
will sound better than the cyber Champ could ever dream of.
Why digital simulate when you can tube stimulate? ;-)
I own both kinds of amps. Old/new tubers and modern digitals. I like
both.
Post by MLINYHI
Post by Ed Cregger
Guess which ones I use the most? The digitals. Why? Because I can't
stand
Post by MLINYHI
to
Post by Ed Cregger
open up the tube amps, even the little ones, in order to get them into
their
Post by Ed Cregger
sweet spot. My hearing is nearly gone as it is. I don't need to further
accelerate its loss.
On the other hand, my digital amps entertain me just fine and at a
volume
Post by MLINYHI
Post by Ed Cregger
that my family and neighbors do not complain about. See why the digitals
are
Post by Ed Cregger
better for me?
I'll bet that the majority of folks reading this newsgroup are just like
me - poor bastards. 8>)
Ed Cregger
Don't bet too much.
ERic
So, are you an elitist that in his heart-of-hearts actually hopes that this
newsgroup is read by fellow elitist guitarists that perform live with amps
cranked wide open? Maybe not you, personally, but some I have read here seem
to think so.
In reality, I would say that the majority of readers are people with an
interest in guitars and amps that work straight jobs, live in close quarters
with others and dare not make much of a ruckus with their instruments. Such
people are perfect candidates for solid-state, low cost, digital amplifiers.
Sure, most dream about opening up a tube amp and letting it wail, but in
reality, it never comes to that. One of these folks buying a tube amp is
really a bad investment. They would be infinitely better off buying
something that would entertain them. Digital effects amps offer tons more
entertainment in confined quarters than any tube amp can offer.
Maybe some day, someone will come out with a quarter watt tube amp that
could be screamed at full volume, but it hasn't happened yet.
Ed Cregger
That day is and has been here. The earlier poster was correct, $249. for
the Gilmore Jr Kit. You get a 12 lb box of parts that you put together and
wind up with a 0.5 Watt Amp that rocks the house. You could also mic the
amp and blow it out through your PA system. Way huge chimey tone that
overdrives nicely. Check it out www.gerhartamps.com

RG
Ed Cregger
2004-03-05 17:52:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by RG
That day is and has been here. The earlier poster was correct, $249. for
the Gilmore Jr Kit. You get a 12 lb box of parts that you put together and
wind up with a 0.5 Watt Amp that rocks the house. You could also mic the
amp and blow it out through your PA system. Way huge chimey tone that
overdrives nicely. Check it out www.gerhartamps.com
RG
I'll give it a look. Thanks.

Ed Cregger
mark
2004-03-06 01:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by MLINYHI
Saw one on musicians friend- 65 watt- sounded decent so I went to
guitar center to check it out. There happened to be a fender rep
there so I asked him and he (of course) showed me the next higher
model-cyber champ deluxe. Its real nice. All kinds of amp simulations
and effects. Sounded good from what I could hear over all the racket
in the store. Goes for about $700 for the deluxe and $450 for the
basic. Anyone own one or try one? Anything positive or negative to
say? Think theres something out there of equal quality/features for less money?
Thanks!!
I'm certainly no amp expert, but I do know the sound of fakeness when I hear
it. Let me tell you a little story:

About a year ago I'm at a local blues jam and there were a lot of good and a
lot of not so good players there. After a couple of hours, I went up to the
bar during a shift change (they cleared out the players up on stage to make
room for the next set). Once the music started again I almost choked on my
beer when I heard the guitar player. I looked up, and it was a player who I
had heard a few times before and he always was pretty good. And he could
play that night too, but the problem was his amp. He sounded like he was
playing through a synth module or something - really cheesy and phony
sounding. And let's face it, the blues is all about tone and feeling.

During the next shift change I walk by him while he was packing up his stuff
and notice he was playing through a big ole cyber-deluxe or cyber-twin (not
the champ one as this thing was big). What a shame to waste his playing on
an amp like that. He'd have been better off using the old 70's crate house
amp.

Moral of the story? Don't be a phony - get a real amp.
Ed Cregger
2004-03-06 03:27:53 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Moral of the story? Don't be a phony - get a real amp.
As with any digital amp, the possible choices in tone is a vast arena. The
chance of locating a good tone out of all of the possibilities can be
discouraging. It does not mean that one or more are not in the mix
somewhere, it simply means that you must take the time to find it.

Does anyone honestly think that Fender would risk their reputation on an amp
that couldn't deliver something as easy to reproduce as a jazz or blues
tone?

If you are white and you play the blues - you are a phony, according to some
folks.

If you really want to be real, do not use an amp at all. When blues first
came about, most folks didn't have electricity and there were no amps. One
could argue that "the real" blues is performed on acoustic instruments only.

The older I get, the sillier this "real blues" argument becomes.

Ed Cregger
mark
2004-03-06 05:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cregger
(snip)
Moral of the story? Don't be a phony - get a real amp.
As with any digital amp, the possible choices in tone is a vast
arena. The chance of locating a good tone out of all of the
possibilities can be discouraging. It does not mean that one or more
are not in the mix somewhere, it simply means that you must take the
time to find it.
Does anyone honestly think that Fender would risk their reputation on
an amp that couldn't deliver something as easy to reproduce as a jazz
or blues tone?
If you are white and you play the blues - you are a phony, according
to some folks.
If you really want to be real, do not use an amp at all. When blues
first came about, most folks didn't have electricity and there were
no amps. One could argue that "the real" blues is performed on
acoustic instruments only.
The older I get, the sillier this "real blues" argument becomes.
Ed Cregger
So Albet King was phony because he played an electric? SRV was phoney
because he was white? You should take your head out of your ass. Maybe then
you'd hear how phony those cyber-amps sound.

If it is so simple to "reproduce something as simple as a blues tone" then
why do 90% of the amps out there fail at it, according to most listeners?
Why then do people spend hundreds of dollars on amps from the 50s and 60s in
order to reproduce that tone, when in your opinion all they need to do is
head down to Guitar Center and pick up the solid-state Crate or CyberPunk
amp?
Count Scrofula
2004-03-06 05:30:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
Post by Ed Cregger
(snip)
Moral of the story? Don't be a phony - get a real amp.
As with any digital amp, the possible choices in tone is a vast
arena. The chance of locating a good tone out of all of the
possibilities can be discouraging. It does not mean that one or more
are not in the mix somewhere, it simply means that you must take the
time to find it.
Does anyone honestly think that Fender would risk their reputation on
an amp that couldn't deliver something as easy to reproduce as a jazz
or blues tone?
If you are white and you play the blues - you are a phony, according
to some folks.
If you really want to be real, do not use an amp at all. When blues
first came about, most folks didn't have electricity and there were
no amps. One could argue that "the real" blues is performed on
acoustic instruments only.
The older I get, the sillier this "real blues" argument becomes.
Ed Cregger
So Albet King was phony because he played an electric? SRV was phoney
because he was white? You should take your head out of your ass. Maybe then
you'd hear how phony those cyber-amps sound.
If it is so simple to "reproduce something as simple as a blues tone" then
why do 90% of the amps out there fail at it, according to most listeners?
Why then do people spend hundreds of dollars on amps from the 50s and 60s in
order to reproduce that tone, when in your opinion all they need to do is
head down to Guitar Center and pick up the solid-state Crate or CyberPunk
amp?
Ed thinks a $150 chinese guitar and a cyber wank amp will meet the needs of
any guitarist.
Ed Cregger
2004-03-06 06:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Count Scrofula
Post by mark
Post by Ed Cregger
(snip)
Moral of the story? Don't be a phony - get a real amp.
As with any digital amp, the possible choices in tone is a vast
arena. The chance of locating a good tone out of all of the
possibilities can be discouraging. It does not mean that one or more
are not in the mix somewhere, it simply means that you must take the
time to find it.
Does anyone honestly think that Fender would risk their reputation on
an amp that couldn't deliver something as easy to reproduce as a jazz
or blues tone?
If you are white and you play the blues - you are a phony, according
to some folks.
If you really want to be real, do not use an amp at all. When blues
first came about, most folks didn't have electricity and there were
no amps. One could argue that "the real" blues is performed on
acoustic instruments only.
The older I get, the sillier this "real blues" argument becomes.
Ed Cregger
So Albet King was phony because he played an electric? SRV was phoney
because he was white? You should take your head out of your ass. Maybe
then
Post by mark
you'd hear how phony those cyber-amps sound.
If it is so simple to "reproduce something as simple as a blues tone" then
why do 90% of the amps out there fail at it, according to most listeners?
Why then do people spend hundreds of dollars on amps from the 50s and
60s
Post by Count Scrofula
in
Post by mark
order to reproduce that tone, when in your opinion all they need to do is
head down to Guitar Center and pick up the solid-state Crate or CyberPunk
amp?
Ed thinks a $150 chinese guitar and a cyber wank amp will meet the needs of
any guitarist.
I never said such a thing.

I said that I think the Chinese guitar copy and digital amp can meet the
needs of the majority of guitarists. Most guitarists are just every day
people that will never gig in public. They will never have more than a
passing interest in the guitar. They do not need to spend a fortune in order
to have a good time playing their Chinese copy and their digital amp. That
is what I said.

The vast majority of people reading this newsgroup are just as I have
described. Those few pros that do most of the posting are in the minority,
but they scream so loudly that lots of folks probably think they are the
norm.

I do not think in terms of black and white. That is what I was trying to
point out in my post. To me it makes no difference what kind of an amp
someone uses, or the color of their skin. It's all about the music. I get
frustrated when I see people putting someone else down simply because of the
equipment they use. That is idiotic.

Ed Cregger
Keith Adams
2004-03-06 21:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Ed, Fenders reputation was ruined the day Leo Fender sold the company.
Since then the only thing they care about is making as much money they can
selling the shittiest junk they can .There's real nice Silverfaced amps but
the minute they started using circuit boards is the minute Fender died.From
everything I've read even their overpriced custom house amps suck
butt.People wont even take the time to pick the cyber amps up out of the
public landfills in the near future.
Invictus
2004-03-07 00:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
Ed, Fenders reputation was ruined the day Leo Fender sold the company.
Since then the only thing they care about is making as much money they can
selling the shittiest junk they can .There's real nice Silverfaced amps but
the minute they started using circuit boards is the minute Fender died.From
everything I've read even their overpriced custom house amps suck
butt.People wont even take the time to pick the cyber amps up out of the
public landfills in the near future.
The last Fender amp that I bought was a silver faced Super Reverb, either in
74 or 75. I didn't use it all that much since I was a full time bass player
in my brother's band. What little I did use it in a band, I was well pleased
with it - considering that it wasn't a Marshall and never was going to sound
like one. Of course, it didn't cost even half as much as a Marshall, so I
didn't get a bad deal. Still at $600, if I recall correctly, it was still a
good hunk of change to spend in those days.

As a bassist, I went with Acoustic and Sunn equipment after a brief stint
with Ampeg. Fender did not offer anything competitive at the time.

I used to know such things as when Leo left Fender, etc. But it escapes me
now.

I'm sure you are not implying that printed circuit boards were a problem,
but instead you were inferring that when they switched to that technology
was when the emphasis on quality was redirected by new management. Right?

Ed Cregger
mark
2004-03-07 01:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by Count Scrofula
Post by mark
Post by Ed Cregger
(snip)
Moral of the story? Don't be a phony - get a real amp.
As with any digital amp, the possible choices in tone is a vast
arena. The chance of locating a good tone out of all of the
possibilities can be discouraging. It does not mean that one or
more are not in the mix somewhere, it simply means that you must
take the time to find it.
Does anyone honestly think that Fender would risk their reputation
on an amp that couldn't deliver something as easy to reproduce as
a jazz or blues tone?
If you are white and you play the blues - you are a phony,
according to some folks.
If you really want to be real, do not use an amp at all. When blues
first came about, most folks didn't have electricity and there were
no amps. One could argue that "the real" blues is performed on
acoustic instruments only.
The older I get, the sillier this "real blues" argument becomes.
Ed Cregger
So Albet King was phony because he played an electric? SRV was
phoney because he was white? You should take your head out of your
ass. Maybe then you'd hear how phony those cyber-amps sound.
If it is so simple to "reproduce something as simple as a blues
tone" then why do 90% of the amps out there fail at it, according
to most listeners? Why then do people spend hundreds of dollars on
amps from the 50s and 60s in order to reproduce that tone, when in
your opinion all they need to do is head down to Guitar Center and
pick up the solid-state Crate or CyberPunk amp?
Ed thinks a $150 chinese guitar and a cyber wank amp will meet the
needs of any guitarist.
I never said such a thing.
I said that I think the Chinese guitar copy and digital amp can meet
the needs of the majority of guitarists. Most guitarists are just
every day people that will never gig in public. They will never have
more than a passing interest in the guitar. They do not need to spend
a fortune in order to have a good time playing their Chinese copy and
their digital amp. That is what I said.
The vast majority of people reading this newsgroup are just as I have
described. Those few pros that do most of the posting are in the
minority, but they scream so loudly that lots of folks probably think
they are the norm.
I do not think in terms of black and white. That is what I was trying
to point out in my post. To me it makes no difference what kind of an
amp someone uses, or the color of their skin. It's all about the
music. I get frustrated when I see people putting someone else down
simply because of the equipment they use. That is idiotic.
Ed Cregger
I don't put anyone down because of the type of equipment they use. I *do*
however put down certain types of equipment because those items suck no
matter who plays through them. And a cyber-champ is one of them for sure if
you're looking for a blues tone (which you claimed was a simple thing to
create, and that white guy's couldn't be authentic doing it).

That said, I totally agree with you - 90% of guitar players should not
bother with tube amps. I've argued this a million times. I am in the process
of picking up another one solely for gigging/jamming. It will be useless at
home because it will be too loud. At home, I use my Trademark 10 from
Tech21, which is a modelling type analog amp. I think it sounds fabulous.
DGDevin
2004-03-07 07:49:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
And a cyber-champ is one of them for sure if
you're looking for a blues tone (which you claimed was a simple thing to
create, and that white guy's couldn't be authentic doing it).
To be fair, I think that's a misrepresentation of what he said. Ed was
trying to illustrate the elitist attitude that sometimes crops up in blues
circles as being similar to the elitist approach some players take to
instruments and amps, or at least that's how I read it. I don't think he
was saying that white boys can't play the blues, clearly that's an absurd
view with people like Peter Green and Eric Clapton and Michael Bloomfield
and S.R. Vaughn et al. on record as playing some of the tastiest blues the
world has ever heard.
Ed Cregger
2004-03-07 07:58:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
Post by Ed Cregger
Post by Count Scrofula
Post by mark
Post by Ed Cregger
(snip)
Moral of the story? Don't be a phony - get a real amp.
As with any digital amp, the possible choices in tone is a vast
arena. The chance of locating a good tone out of all of the
possibilities can be discouraging. It does not mean that one or
more are not in the mix somewhere, it simply means that you must
take the time to find it.
Does anyone honestly think that Fender would risk their reputation
on an amp that couldn't deliver something as easy to reproduce as
a jazz or blues tone?
If you are white and you play the blues - you are a phony,
according to some folks.
If you really want to be real, do not use an amp at all. When blues
first came about, most folks didn't have electricity and there were
no amps. One could argue that "the real" blues is performed on
acoustic instruments only.
The older I get, the sillier this "real blues" argument becomes.
Ed Cregger
So Albet King was phony because he played an electric? SRV was
phoney because he was white? You should take your head out of your
ass. Maybe then you'd hear how phony those cyber-amps sound.
If it is so simple to "reproduce something as simple as a blues
tone" then why do 90% of the amps out there fail at it, according
to most listeners? Why then do people spend hundreds of dollars on
amps from the 50s and 60s in order to reproduce that tone, when in
your opinion all they need to do is head down to Guitar Center and
pick up the solid-state Crate or CyberPunk amp?
Ed thinks a $150 chinese guitar and a cyber wank amp will meet the
needs of any guitarist.
I never said such a thing.
I said that I think the Chinese guitar copy and digital amp can meet
the needs of the majority of guitarists. Most guitarists are just
every day people that will never gig in public. They will never have
more than a passing interest in the guitar. They do not need to spend
a fortune in order to have a good time playing their Chinese copy and
their digital amp. That is what I said.
The vast majority of people reading this newsgroup are just as I have
described. Those few pros that do most of the posting are in the
minority, but they scream so loudly that lots of folks probably think
they are the norm.
I do not think in terms of black and white. That is what I was trying
to point out in my post. To me it makes no difference what kind of an
amp someone uses, or the color of their skin. It's all about the
music. I get frustrated when I see people putting someone else down
simply because of the equipment they use. That is idiotic.
Ed Cregger
I don't put anyone down because of the type of equipment they use. I *do*
however put down certain types of equipment because those items suck no
matter who plays through them. And a cyber-champ is one of them for sure if
you're looking for a blues tone (which you claimed was a simple thing to
create, and that white guy's couldn't be authentic doing it).
That said, I totally agree with you - 90% of guitar players should not
bother with tube amps. I've argued this a million times. I am in the process
of picking up another one solely for gigging/jamming. It will be useless at
home because it will be too loud. At home, I use my Trademark 10 from
Tech21, which is a modelling type analog amp. I think it sounds fabulous.
Gee, you wouldn't think that two individuals with such vast differences
between them, according to you, would own two identical solid-state amps,
would you?

I too own a Tech 21 ten watter. I too am enamored with the sound, for what
it is. Is it possible that you are misreading some of what I have said? I do
believe so.

I didn't say that white folks couldn't play the blues with feeling. I was
pointing out that there are some folks that do feel that way. I did not say
that only those using acoustic guitars could play the real blues. I was
pointing out that if one wanted to be completely anal about what is real and
what is not, one could look at it this way, not that I felt this way.
Personally, I love music - period. I don't care about race, equipment or
places/times of origin. THAT was my point.

Ed Cregger
DGDevin
2004-03-06 18:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cregger
Does anyone honestly think that Fender would risk their reputation on an amp
that couldn't deliver something as easy to reproduce as a jazz or blues
tone?
Fender seems willing to risk their reputation on a lot substandard
merchandise, and I say that as someone who owns half a dozen Fender
instruments. The Cyber Twin got what seemed to be a universal thumbs down
when it was introduced, online I mean, not in the bought-and-paid-for pages
of guitar magazines, surely somebody would have favorably impressed if the
thing had any good chops to offer. I agree that with caredul tweaking a lot
of digital amps can be made to sound surprisingly good, on the other hand,
you could just plug into the amps the simulator is trying to sound like,
seems like a simpler solution. I'm about to plug into a thirty year old
Fender tube amp, I wonder how many digital simulators will still be working
in that many years? ;-)
mark
2004-03-07 01:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by DGDevin
Post by Ed Cregger
Does anyone honestly think that Fender would risk their reputation
on an amp that couldn't deliver something as easy to reproduce as a
jazz or blues tone?
Fender seems willing to risk their reputation on a lot substandard
merchandise, and I say that as someone who owns half a dozen Fender
instruments. The Cyber Twin got what seemed to be a universal thumbs
down when it was introduced, online I mean, not in the
bought-and-paid-for pages of guitar magazines, surely somebody would
have favorably impressed if the thing had any good chops to offer. I
agree that with caredul tweaking a lot of digital amps can be made to
sound surprisingly good, on the other hand, you could just plug into
the amps the simulator is trying to sound like, seems like a simpler
solution. I'm about to plug into a thirty year old Fender tube amp,
I wonder how many digital simulators will still be working in that
many years? ;-)
I agree DG. Just for the record, I did not say the quote you attribute to me
in your post - that was Ed.
DGDevin
2004-03-07 07:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
I agree DG. Just for the record, I did not say the quote you attribute to me
in your post - that was Ed.
That's why I trim all the headers and quotations down to the bare essentials
most of the time, makes it harder to misquote people. ;-)
Ed Cregger
2004-03-07 08:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
Post by DGDevin
Post by Ed Cregger
Does anyone honestly think that Fender would risk their reputation
on an amp that couldn't deliver something as easy to reproduce as a
jazz or blues tone?
Fender seems willing to risk their reputation on a lot substandard
merchandise, and I say that as someone who owns half a dozen Fender
instruments. The Cyber Twin got what seemed to be a universal thumbs
down when it was introduced, online I mean, not in the
bought-and-paid-for pages of guitar magazines, surely somebody would
have favorably impressed if the thing had any good chops to offer. I
agree that with caredul tweaking a lot of digital amps can be made to
sound surprisingly good, on the other hand, you could just plug into
the amps the simulator is trying to sound like, seems like a simpler
solution. I'm about to plug into a thirty year old Fender tube amp,
I wonder how many digital simulators will still be working in that
many years? ;-)
I agree DG. Just for the record, I did not say the quote you attribute to me
in your post - that was Ed.
With the obvious lack of reading comprehension skills of some newsgroup
participants, I wouldn't be so sure that Ed said it. Whatever it was.

Ed Cregger
mark
2004-03-07 20:07:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cregger
Does anyone honestly think that Fender would risk their reputation
on an amp that couldn't deliver something as easy to reproduce as a
jazz or blues tone?
Perhaps then it's my newsreader (OE), because the above is what came through
to me, with the quote directly below "mark wrote".
DGDevin
2004-03-07 22:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
Perhaps then it's my newsreader (OE), because the above is what came through
to me, with the quote directly below "mark wrote".
That must have been my fault then, sloppy trimming on my part, apologies.
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